Along Main Street and Bridge Street, Richmond’s compact downtown announces a community focus on racial justice. The Black Lives Matter flag flutters from First Congregational Church. Hand-painted murals on the Town Center display statistics on racism in Vermont. A sign in front of the historic building says it in big, block letters: Black Lives Matter.

That call for racial justice infused questions in a Sept. 24 forum with three candidates—Kyle Kapitanski, Donald Babbin, and Neil Mogerley—to be Richmond’s new police chief. After the forum, at least some community members asked town manager Josh Arneson to reject all three, saying none of the three candidates takes the issue seriously enough.

“I'm not convinced that we have the best candidate in front of us,” said Richmond resident Annie Lajoie, who reached out to Arneson to express her concerns. Here’s what Richmond residents asked—and excerpts of each candidate’s responses.

Q: How have you confronted privilege or racism, whether intentional or not, personally or professionally? Tell us about a time when you witnessed or found racism in your community or your department and how you acted on it.

Kapitanski: “I don’t feel like I’ve experienced white privilege or racism in my own personal life...We’re all peers, we’re all equal,” Kapitanski said. “There is no room for people to be a target based on their race or socioeconomic status.”

Babbin: “I do see some racism, but it’s not white supremacy, it’s nothing like that,” Babbin said. Babbin, who recently joined his local NAACP chapter, says, it’s important to collaborate with the community, “so everyone feels like they are part of the fabric.”

Mogerley: “I haven’t seen much of [racism in policing],” Mogerley said. “I have had people play the race card. As soon as we go to calls we get people saying it’s because they’re Black. What I do is pull them aside and explain why we’re here, what the call is, and go into detail and explain everything so they know it’s fair and that it has nothing to do with race… we are going to make decisions based on facts and what happened.”

Q: What are your feelings on the current BLM movement and the counter Blue Lives Matter Movement?

Kapitanski: “I can’t get behind either one of them because they don’t mean what they originally meant… BLM is important, but other things are important missions of the police and we don’t want to lose sight of those,” Kapitanski said. “I think that rhetoric and propaganda has taken over on both of them. The sentiment for both movements makes sense. Unfortunately they’ve been politicized.”

Babbin: “I agree with peaceful protests. Once violence erupts, or vandalism, there’s no need for that. It’s the same for the Blue Lives Matter movement. Every life matters...it’s irrelevant to me,” Babbin said. “I stay out of it. I wouldn’t take a side on either one.”

Mogerley: “I support peaceful protests… should never be to the point of unruly protests,” Mogerley said.

Q: Your reactions to the protests in Burlington and the stance on the three officers that are being questioned there.

Kapitanski: “I’ve seen what I’ve seen in the media. I believe everyone has a right to assemble and peacefully protest. As soon as the protests turn violent I disagree with them,” Kapitanski said.

“If they were exonerated and they didn’t do anything wrong and there are demands for discipline just because, I don’t agree with that… but if there is a reason to take another look at something I think they should look at it again.”

Q: How do you educate yourself on bias and racism, even if you say have not witnessed or experienced it first-hand yourself?

Mogerley: “I watch a lot of current events about what is going on… I’ve been fortunate enough to live and work in departments where racism has never taken place,” Mogerley said. “I like the concept of Key West. Here, the motto here is one human family and the whole island follows that. Maybe that is something we can take up to Vermont and bring that concept there.”

Q: Given current events in our country, can you talk a little bit about systemic racism, and how this connects to your work experiences throughout your career?

Babbin: “I think we do have racism in this country. I don’t think everyone is treated equally. One thing I do believe in is treating people fairly, equitably, listening to them,” Babbin said.

Kapitanski: “I need to acknowledge that I don’t see it in my day to day operation. It is hard to point my finger at something I cannot identify,” Kapitanski said. “If there is something I can do about it, I want to do that. I can’t fix a problem I can’t identify. I need the community to show me what we can fix and what we can make better.”

What does the data say about racial bias in Vermont’s justice system?

Kapitanski, the only candidate currently working for the Richmond police department, says he hasn’t seen evidence of systemic racism in his day-to-day work here. “If it exists, I want to find it and combat it,” Kapitanski said.

Data suggests it does exist. Black drivers are nearly 4 times more likely to be searched than white drivers in Vermont, found a study by Professors Stephanie Seguino and Nancy Brooks. That’s even though they’re less likely to possess contraband than their white counterparts. It’s a finding that Kapitanski has likely seen before: It’s painted on the side of the Richmond Town Center, which houses the police department.

“We are really disproportionately incarcerating people of color,” said Vermont House Representative Selene Colburn, of Burlington. Sufficient data is lacking, however, said Colburn, who recently sponsored bills to gather more information about the criminal justice system. “We just need to do some more work to gather data along the way, to really pinpoint moments in the system that need reform,” she said.

But Colburn says police should not wait for systematic changes on the state level. “I think we have plenty of evidence that all of our institutions—including our so-called justice system—are imbued with implicit bias and the impact of white supremacy,” Colburn said.

She believes they should take action now, implementing policies such as implicit bias training. (Some researchers have questioned the efficacy of implicit bias training in changing behavior.)

For her part, Richmond resident Lajoie said she invites her neighbors to judge for themselves—she hopes people will take the time to participate in local decision making. “I think we can build a much better world, and much better lives for us and our children,” Lajoie said.

More information on each of the three candidate’s strategic plans can be found on the town’s website.